This episode explores how brain science can transform leadership, sales strategies, and workplace culture. Discover the importance of a human-centric approach, the challenges and opportunities of AI, and innovative ways to boost employee well-being and engagement. Learn why investing in mental health and creating spaces for mental reset are essential for long-term success.
About Kim Breiland:
Kim Breiland, A.npn. is a Business and Customer Experience Consultant & Coach, and an Associate Neuroplastician. She specializes in ethical leadership, customer experience optimization, and business systems development. Kim brings a unique approach to enhancing performance, sales, and customer experience through neuroscience-backed techniques and tools, as well as her B.R.A.I.N.S. Performance System™. With over 20 years of experience, she guides businesses to adopt innovative mindsets using human-centric frameworks, to improve profits & become iconic in their customers’ minds.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimbreiland/
Website: https://kimbreilandcoaching.com/
Key Takeaways
Episode Chapters
00:00 – Introduction to Neuroplasticity in Business
01:58 – The Journey into Neuro Sales
04:11 – Neuroscience and Business Decisions
07:56 – Scaling Neuroscience in Business
09:51 – The Human-Centric Approach to Business
12:11 – The Impact of AI on Employee Engagement
16:03 – Adapting to Change with Neuroplasticity
20:07 – The Importance of People in Business
22:02 – Bridging the Gap Between Science and Business
27:13 – Measuring ROI in Employee Wellbeing
30:09 – Creating Spaces for Mental Reset
34:46 – The Role of Rest and Mindfulness
36:24 – Navigating Dyslexia and Neurodiversity Advocacy
45:00 – The Future of Brain Science and Technology
Becca Chambers (00:02.846)
Hello everybody, welcome to the Mind Garden podcast. I'm your host, Becca Chambers, and as always, I'm joined by my co-host, Jev Ray. Here in the Mind Garden, we explore the frontiers of brain science and human potential through conversations with pioneers in neuro technology and cognitive innovation. Whether you're a researcher, entrepreneur, healthcare professional, or simply fascinated by how brain science is reshaping our understanding of what's possible, you're in the right place.
And Today I am pleased to have Kim Breiland joining us.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (00:37.646)
Hello, thank you so much for inviting me.
Becca Chambers (00:41.374)
Yes, Kim is an associate neuroplastician and business consultant who brings a fascinating perspective on how neuroscience can transform business success. With over 20 years of experience, Kim specializes in ethical leadership and customer experience optimization through neuroscience-backed techniques. She helps organizations adopt human-centric approaches to enhance customer experience, improve sales strategies, and build stronger teams. And she's known for her work in neuro sales.
and human-centered approaches to business transformation. So, welcome to The Mindgarden Kim. I'm super excited to have you here.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (01:17.902)
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I've just met Jeff and I'm a fan already, but back then I've been a fan of yours for a while. So this is like a little bit starstruck. So this is exciting. I love that we have this in common, this love for brain-based learning. This is exciting.
Becca Chambers (01:33.496)
Totally. And what's so cool about the brain science industry that I'm only learning myself because I don't come from this is that it touches so many different industries, right? Like you are a business consultant. On the other hand, we're talking to researchers who are doing things in education and health and, you know, really futuristic type stuff, but you're doing stuff that's like right now practical, transforming business. So I guess that's a perfect place to start.
Jev Wray (01:34.525)
Absolutely.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (01:43.416)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (01:55.278)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure.
Becca Chambers (01:58.548)
I had never heard the term neuro sales until I started looking into your work. And I just love to hear more about your journey into neuroscience, how you came to apply it to business and kind of just a background there.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (02:09.656)
Thank you, thank you for asking. Yeah, so it is different, isn't it? So I have been using behavioral science in my work for almost a decade. The neuro sales, neuro leadership terms are fairly new. They've only been around for kind of, I would say a couple years, maybe about five. And don't quote me on that, because I haven't looked into it, but it's a way to help you understand how to use, ethically use principles of behavioral economics, neuroscience, psychology.
to ethically sell and market and lead. And so that's sort of always been the way that I work and how I work no matter where my journey has taken me. But I have always been fascinated by people and how people can evolve and change and how environment or the way that they're spoken to or things like that can really affect performance, decision making and conversations. And in terms of the sales cycle or
building a high performing team. So these are sort of principles I've always used and now it's just, I feel like becoming a lot more commonly known to the rest of the world, which is exciting because you're right, there's so many applications in so many different areas for behavioral sciences and it's really an, it's a pretty awesome epic time to be alive, to be honest.
Jev Wray (03:30.462)
That is
Becca Chambers (03:31.84)
No kidding, an epic time to be alive. how does neuroscience inform business decisions?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (03:33.292)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (03:42.894)
Sure. So, so I guess we have to, should start with neuroplasticity, which is the brain's way of being able to adapt and change. for, know, a long time, people thought that you developed by a certain point, your brain was what it was or is, and that it cannot be changed. But we're actually learning that's not true. The brain can respond and rewire and grow, make it forming new neural pathways depending on
the different thoughts stimuli, different experiences, the way we handle emotion, the way we under perceive things versus the way others perceive things. And when we can build up our neuroplasticity, then we're actually, this is where great innovation, curiosity and performance and being able to achieve these things, that's where it comes from, from those capabilities or believing in those capabilities.
Becca Chambers (04:42.23)
Sorry, go ahead.
Jev Wray (04:42.282)
You know, that's pretty interesting the way you kind of brought it all together conceptually because, you know, in sales, you know, we talk about adaptability all day, right? We talk about being able to persuade, convince, yeah, XYZ. At the end of the day, no one has really put it into the context of neuroplasticity, right? One's ability to shift the way they're thinking, change their cognition altogether, change their behavior altogether.
Yeah, I find that really interesting how you kind of brought that into brought these two domains together, if you will, you know what I mean? Looking at it from a business functional perspective, rather than just a purely research perspective in that case, in the context of neuroplasticity, that is super cool.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (05:25.624)
Yeah, yeah. It is pretty cool. get to kind of work. have an amazing network of neuroscientists and really awesome, amazing people that are doing the work and doing the research and having the fun with the apparatus that can measure the different, just the way the neurons are operating in the brain. I don't do that, at least not yet. And...
I but I get to understand it and learn it and apply it to everyday life and like how people perform and I think that that can be hard at times bridging the gap between science and real-life application that can be really tricky and when it comes to leadership or sales there's certain words we always hear of like like overcoming objections or You know, why did I lose that? know, why did I lose that deal at some point if you lose a deal at some point?
you have agitated the amygdala. And if you agitate the amygdala, that's not good. We don't want to do that. And so teaching people how to do less of that, it's pretty cool.
Becca Chambers (06:30.488)
That's super interesting. So do you think that people take this concept more seriously because you're able to show it, like show what the brain is doing while these things are happening?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (06:44.206)
That's what I'm hoping. I, it's funny. I was talking to my mentor today and we were talking over a new project that I'm working on with the company. And I said, you know, step one or phase one is what I've always been doing, which is the support and bringing the tools and all those other things. I said, but I'm really most excited for phase two because there's actually a lot of apps that are coming to market that are going to be really neat in helping with buy-in understanding.
and why people should and can apply these things and to really actually see it on a screen and see the brain chemistry change. I don't know if you guys have ever seen it. I went to a seminar year, mean so many, I don't even know how many years ago, and it was on meditation and they showed on the screen the MRI of a person, the brain activity before regular meditation and after.
Becca Chambers (07:26.072)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (07:42.572)
And it was, I you can't unsee it. It's just unbelievable. So when I see things like that, I know there's just so much possible. And it's just about educating people on how they can apply it.
Becca Chambers (07:45.688)
now.
Jev Wray (07:55.466)
Mm-mm.
Becca Chambers (07:56.418)
And is this something that you can do at scale? mean, if you're, if it's brain science, are these things applicable to everybody or is it like very individualized?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (08:07.266)
Right now, I think it's going to require bigger budgets to bring it in at scale. However, the things that I'm seeing, the apps and the different technology, it's going to eventually be as simple as the way people wear their smartwatches and they can track heart rate and steps and those kind of things. We're going to see the next generation of users being able to understand their brain chemistry.
Becca Chambers (08:23.479)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (08:34.966)
how they're responding in situations and the effect that stress has on our longevity and our decision making and logic center. And so those things are the exciting things that are coming up. And yes, to answer your question, yes, I do believe it can be at scale at some point. Yeah.
Becca Chambers (08:50.742)
Yeah, that's super cool. it is, I mean, I believe that brain science is the next frontier in all of these things, right? It's not just understanding your health, but mental health and yes, performance and all of these things. if, I guess what kinds of businesses are,
Kim Breiland, A.npn (08:57.826)
Mm-hmm.
Becca Chambers (09:11.168)
investing in this. Like what kinds of businesses are at the forefront that are saying, hey we're going to use actual brain science to help improve our processes and our people and our functions and all of that.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (09:22.734)
Yeah, so historically I've worked with small and medium sized businesses of, and when I say small business, know, like staffs of like 100 and up. And I'm actually in the process of hopefully working with a Fortune 100 in the new year and seeing how these, thank you Jeff, little golf clap. So yeah, so seeing how this, you know, hopefully, like I said, I don't wanna count my chickens before it's hatched, but.
Becca Chambers (09:51.212)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (09:51.714)
There are people that are absolutely investing in this and they're taking it very seriously. And I think that's why we see companies become the size and the ability to say, I'm a fortune 100 or I'm a fortune 50. It's because they've always taken a proactive and very next gen approach to growing the business and supporting their people. And I think that businesses that have leadership
that see this as the next frontier. And I do agree with you. I think it's going to be two things, Becca. I think it's going to be, we have to keep up with this new era, this disruption, AI, but also favoring human connection and behavior. That's one arm of it. But then I also think that we're going to see companies really starting to use AI, or maybe this is my hope.
companies start to use AI in different ways that allow for greater work-life alignment. so, you I think most people are feeling very burned out right now. I mean, we know the stats, right? Gallup release not that long ago, 51 % disengagement and like 18 % actively disengaged. And the way that the human brain works is that you're actually, know, a lot of people I'm talking to, they're like, yeah, my organization's great. Everybody gets along.
Yeah, because you like each other genuinely. And that makes it less likely for you to actually let somebody know if something's bothering you or if there's a problem because you do respect them and you don't want to hurt their feelings or you don't. And so I don't know that people who are in these bigger organizations, I don't know if they realize these disengagement numbers and that it's because people are just burning out.
Becca Chambers (11:44.93)
I mean, I'm a communications person. I lead communications in corporate environments. So I am keenly aware of kind of the dissatisfaction and disengagement that employees have. Part of my job is employee engagement, right? So I think that there has been a massive kind of, it's not just employees disengaging because employees are disengaging. Companies are spending less.
Energy resources time investing in their employees these days and I think employees feel that in a really real way And it's making them realize okay Well, you don't care about me that I'm not gonna care about you or the work or whatever and your work is all focused on the human Centricity which I also believe is the key to successful business brands long-term growth How does this and what you're doing which is real science behind?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (12:14.711)
agreed.
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (12:28.846)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (12:34.478)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (12:39.854)
you
Becca Chambers (12:40.84)
the human centricity. How is that hopefully going to change the way people look at this? Because this trend towards, well, if employees don't like it, they can leave is really a bad trend.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (12:42.861)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (12:52.014)
I agreed. You summarized it beautifully what's happening. And I think that there's been a multiple decades long profits before people initiative and it's going to catch up. And I think there's going to be a massive talent management crisis in the next decade, within the next decade. I think you're going to see as the economy starts to bolster and people feel more confident about, you know, switching their positions and you're going to see, and that costs
companies, mean, exorbitant, high attrition costs companies an exorbitant amount of money. Exactly. And I'll never understand.
Becca Chambers (13:27.64)
Totally. Way more than investing in your employees while they're there.
Jev Wray (13:35.184)
Well, let me let me play devil's advocate for a minute here because you know, I mean, I myself I'm in the talent acquisition space and just like you guys are saying, I'm seeing the very same trend happen, right? You know, a lot of people becoming a lot more disengaged and you know, where I actually started realizing this happening more often was following all the master layoffs in tech, right? You know, 20, 22 onwards, you know, we have hundreds and thousands of people that are just all of a sudden popped into the top market. And I mean,
Kim Breiland, A.npn (13:38.242)
where.
Jev Wray (14:03.05)
10-year employees too. We're not just talking about people who just recently graduated college, you're at the bottom of the food chain and they get cut. Thought about people that you would have thought they would have retired in that position, right? And now you have this whole stigma that starts to develop about job security is a thing of the past and it starts to become that way, right? And once again, all of this kind of ties back what you said, Kim, the fact that
you know, it's profit over people, you know, we're pleasing the shareholders first versus, you know, taking, making sure our employees are taken care of. But here's where the devil's eye to get part comes in, right? Yeah. And this might be a hot take, but you know, AI and as it proliferates, what I've started to see is that, you know, on a very baseline level, it starts with just operational optimization, right? You know, we're talking about your everyday operations that AI could just step in and do.
And it starts there and it vertically scales up onto the point where you have, what they're assuming now will be entire systems of agents running whole companies. So it kind of seems like there's an inverse relation right now as AI, I guess proliferates, employee security just somehow dwindles, right? And that's not to say that I support that, but I mean, as we approach something say like,
understanding how the world is changing around us. And I guess this kind of ties back into neuroplasticity in a way, being able to fundamentally adapt to these changes. I think there really is a double-edged sword that kind of comes with, once again, proliferation of AI. But then on top of that too, how do people really adjust to these new climates, really? You know what I mean?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (15:49.422)
Sure, I mean you brought up so many great points and I think that the biggest point or the biggest thing that I take from it is the need to evolve and the brain doesn't like change. The brain doesn't like it fears the unknown.
And so there's going to be massive resistance and leadership needs to take that seriously and how they're going to help with that change management. But I do believe that it's no, it's, I'll give you a different analogy. It's think about it as like in the 1800s or, you know, even further back than that, you know, there were jobs like blacksmiths, right? Or, you know, different, you get the point, like those jobs that
don't really exist anymore because people had to evolve. And I think we're now living through the next great evolution where jobs will go away and companies will adapt and people need to position themselves to adapt with the growth and the evolution as opposed to resisting it.
Because if you embrace it, the more you embrace that fear of the unknown or that change, that's the neuroplasticity piece. The better you get at adapting and evolving with the times as opposed to resisting that evolution.
Becca Chambers (16:59.96)
I mean, we encourage our kids to do that, right? Like we tell children they have to be adaptable and learn new things. And just because you've done it this way. the fact that adults expect that they can go around in the world and just be like, well, I learned to this point and now I'm done. No new information, no change. I'm good where I am. I'm going to stay here. That's not really, I don't know.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (17:02.734)
Thank
Kim Breiland, A.npn (17:16.141)
Yeah.
Becca Chambers (17:22.405)
I feel like people who think that way are going to get lost in this next phase because we are moving way too fast with technology to just be like, I like it the way it is. I'm going to stay here.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (17:30.69)
Yes, but to blend both of your points, you need to invest in your people. Like, need to invest.
Jev Wray (17:30.879)
Yeah, you know.
Becca Chambers (17:36.161)
Yes.
Jev Wray (17:40.34)
People are at the center of everything. You know, it's funny. I saw a quote from, you guys know Robert Urschback, right? Everybody knows Robert Urschback. He said, you know, sales are the lifeblood of the company. And I said, well, you know, Rob, I respect you and everything else, but absolutely not. People are the lifeblood of the company, right? Without people, there's no sales. Without sales, there's no money. Without no money, there's no business. know, mean, it always comes back to people, you know?
Becca Chambers (17:42.552)
I do think we're
Kim Breiland, A.npn (17:58.936)
Yep. Yep.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (18:07.456)
It does, but don't. No, go, go, go.
Becca Chambers (18:07.542)
Well, and there's this idea, sorry, Kim, but there is this idea that, know, sales is everything, revenue is everything. Or if you're the product people, the product is everything, right? No, whatever your purview is, but all of that only works if you have people that want to show up and do their jobs. And so this idea that like product is everything, but people aren't the lifeblood, like wrong because products aren't making your products.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (18:35.214)
Hmm.
Becca Chambers (18:35.576)
They're helping make your products, but people are at the core of that. People are at the core of every single thing you do, every sale you make. And I just think we are taking such a short-sighted view of everything by focusing on the outputs and not the things that are making it happen.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (18:52.408)
So this is a good example of like working with human nature instead of against it. But there you're right. There would be if there is not the operations, the delivery, if there's so many behind the scenes, if you will, roles that are vital to a company's well-being. And so there'd be nothing to sell if we don't have those people. And so it's you really have to take a 360 approach to growing and running and scaling a business.
I always, like my motto is, you know, when you create a place where people want to be, that's teams and customers, the profits inevitably follow, but you have to take care of the people. If you don't take care of the people that are part of your organization, they can't remain innovative. They can't remain curious. They can't troubleshoot and have a more proactive approach as opposed to a reactive approach. Most businesses run reactively, most. And you know, it's
Becca Chambers (19:46.7)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (19:49.262)
pretty rare that I come across a business that's being run in a proactive manner. I hope that that should change, hopefully, with all this great information that's coming out and available to us. at the bottom, you know, the bottom line is if you don't keep up, you will become the next blockbuster. And so, you know, I miss blockbuster. But what's that? is it Instagram? is it? Okay. I thought that was close too. Okay.
Becca Chambers (20:07.298)
Yeah.
Jev Wray (20:08.05)
Hahaha!
There's one still in Alaska. There's one still. The last one, the absolute last one.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (20:18.678)
Okay. So I mean, yeah, I think that to your point, yeah, people are at, you know, the, and if people say it, but I don't think everybody's, you know, they're talking the talk, but they're not walking the walk. Right? Yeah.
Becca Chambers (20:30.392)
That's where we're at right now is this we're at this like everyone's saying how we understand how much our people matter and we love our people and blah blah blah but it's like pizza party aren't you happy? No, we're not happy like we want psychological safety, right? We want to be able to take risks and we want to be able to share our ideas and feel like they're valued and not just that we're here to take orders and be you know jumping through hoops for the sake of jumping through hoops and
Kim Breiland, A.npn (20:40.93)
Yeah, yeah, no, nope, no, no. Exactly.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (20:50.338)
Yes. Yes.
Becca Chambers (20:59.21)
Again, I'm a comms leader, so I know that I understand this, but it is so frustrating in my role to feel like I'm the person in between employees and executives trying to say, hey, this is what the employees need. And the executives being like, no, no, they don't. They don't need that. And it's like, they're saying they need this, you know?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (21:12.974)
It's so, and it's so out of touch, it gets me so frustrated. I've seen it, before I even started my own business, I mean, it was part of my journey, you know, in my working journey. And it is, it's so frustrating. And we know now from a science perspective, that behavior, it comes from a place of fearing loss of control. And it comes from a place of feeling like,
they know best and there just is no room for it. If I let other people give insight or input, it's going to diminish my role or my authority or my ability to look like I'm coming up with all the best ideas and all this other stuff. And really, we know it's not the way the best businesses are run. So yeah, great point, Becca.
Becca Chambers (22:02.026)
I, that brings me to one of the questions that I had written before, but your work bridges the gap between neuroscience and practical business applications. So when you're having these conversations with people, I assume that your clients are the people who are not, how do I put this? Your clients are the people who do care about other people. So you don't have the resistant people who are saying, no, we don't need to invest in our employees.
Are you having those conversations with anybody? Any of those resistant, or the executives that think that they're walking the walk when they're really just talking the talk and showing them how, like the science says this, like are you able to change hearts and minds with the science or are you finding interesting, surprising outcomes with the science?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (22:52.838)
So I would say that right now I'm in a realm of where I definitely attract the people that are interested in being like the most proactive or the strongest or if they are struggling, we're able to turn it around really fast because we come in and we can use so many tools to just really understand what's happening right away. I have conversations on a weekly basis that with executives and leaders, founders.
who are extremely resistant. I don't try to convince them otherwise. I tend to ask a lot of questions that I hope will make them think and then eventually, know, not in maybe necessarily in the moment, but then they move on and then, and they'll never admit it to me, but then they'll start going to work hopefully after that. And I do believe or I hope.
Becca Chambers (23:42.509)
Right.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (23:47.564)
that the more people I work with, the more, you know, and there's other people that are doing similar things to me that are doing great things. So I think the pendulum is swinging in that direction and it'll be a matter of time where people are going to be, they're gonna be forced to get with it or they'll be out of the loop.
Becca Chambers (24:02.208)
Yeah.
Jev Wray (24:05.62)
So presumably though, there is somewhat of an education barrier when you kind of introduce this practice to executives and such,
Kim Breiland, A.npn (24:13.358)
Absolutely. Absolutely. have to, when I put my proposals together, I have to always tie it into the budget. I have to always point it to the KPIs. I have to always show how the human behavior piece ties into productivity, performance, sales, always. And it's not to say I don't do it unethically. If it's not there, it's not there. it's bridging the gap. And I do think that
Jev Wray (24:31.732)
So that was
Kim Breiland, A.npn (24:42.848)
In a couple more years, we'll have to, we'll see less of that and they'll, we'll see a higher understanding of the need to proactively support our people, the health and wellness of our people. A lot of people think of it as woo or like not part of the workplace or whatever you want to call it. It's not. And here's why. I did a post on LinkedIn just yesterday, I believe, that was prompting and pleading everybody to read the book, The Anxious Generation. It's been in, it's,
Jev Wray (25:11.732)
So.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (25:12.738)
You saw it. Okay. So it's been out, I think almost two years and I think this is like the second year and everybody thinks it's a book just for parents and it is, it is, and it's certainly a book, a very, very important read for that initiative, but for tech, you know, in terms of monitoring it more with our young children and the child or the play-based childhood and things like that. But I mean, if you think that adults haven't been impacted in similar ways,
I mean, I'm sorry. I think the data is showing us that it is. And I think companies are, are, and it's going to take time, but they're going to have to understand that they need to do things to promote the seven types of rest that humans need. And being 365 attached to our devices, you are literally crushing people's creativity, their innovation, their performance, human connection, you're all of it. And so.
Becca Chambers (25:44.44)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (26:12.94)
I mean, but.
Becca Chambers (26:13.738)
And as somebody who is sat on executive teams, like I, there are no corporate KPIs around these things. There are no benchmarks that we have to meet about employees. There are, you know, you send out employee satisfaction surveys and you're supposed to have a certain employee MPS score. Beyond that, there is nothing. And there is not even any expectation that you follow up on the employee, you know, feedback thing.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (26:22.702)
Right.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (26:35.811)
Right.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (26:41.196)
And a lot of those are done in such a bias way. also, you know, and also I've had people admit, yeah, I just told them what they wanted to hear. And so it's like, you're not exactly, but here's where the brain science comes in. Or my hope is that there are these tools that can monitor satisfaction, that can monitor. But then you're getting into the ethical component of like, am I really gonna?
Becca Chambers (26:43.853)
Totally.
Becca Chambers (26:50.2)
100 % every time.
Jev Wray (26:50.984)
Yeah.
Becca Chambers (27:00.087)
Right.
Jev Wray (27:05.362)
I was gonna say.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (27:06.23)
Yeah. Am I really going to take my employee and sit them down in a chair and strap something to their head to monitor? You know, now we're getting a little, yeah, now we're getting a little, you know, yeah, we don't want to, it's not an interrogation room. So, you know, it's, creating that psychological safety is, is, is real, but you're right, Becca. It's, there's so many metrics that are not measurable. well, let me, let me rephrase that.
Jev Wray (27:13.386)
were you feeling today? I'm sorry, is this a psych lesson? Am I in therapy?
Becca Chambers (27:14.976)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (27:34.936)
There are metrics that are measurable. You have things like your attrition. You have things like employee driven initiatives where they can actually show their interest in something. And there's different ways to do that, And so there are some, but it's incredibly hard. mean, yes. Yes.
Jev Wray (27:45.066)
productivity.
Becca Chambers (27:50.274)
Right.
Becca Chambers (27:55.49)
Well, it's hard to show ROI in investing. That's the hard part is the, I'm investing X dollars and I'm going to get Y out of it. That's really hard to show. And I think what you're doing is creating some baselines and data that will then make it easier maybe to show in the long run.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (28:03.542)
Right. Right.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (28:11.978)
Well, that's my hope. I'm actually, this is brand new, so I have no data to tell you or nothing to say like, this is what, you know, but I'm in the process of pitching companies, certain companies with high performance, high stress, you know, think healthcare, things like that. I'm trying to pitch amygdala reset stations. This is not a concept that I created. I take no credit for it. You can Google, I don't actually know the originator of it.
I know that my kindergartner has them in her school and it's amazing. And the other day she was like coming out, just trying to get her to bed. She doesn't need sleep. It's so frustrating. So we're going up the stairs and I'm trying to get her to sleep. And she's like, mommy, I had the best day. I said, yeah. I said, why is that? And she said, well, first I love learning. And second of all, love to reset my body. And third of all, I like when Declan throws me the ball. And I was like,
man, to be in kindergarten again. And I said, well, tell me more. Tell me more. What do you do to, what do you mean, like regulate your body? And she said, well, you know, after lunch we have the Wiggly's and we're all crazy. And so we get to come back and we get to like color or we can stretch or we can put our head down for a few minutes. And then I feel all better and I'm regulated. I thought to myself, if we think, and Becca, going back to your point from earlier, if we think that as adults, we just suddenly grow out of the need of things,
It's crazy, right? So the idea of these amygdala reset stations is that it would have to be a certain framework and it would be different for every company, but it would basically be a place where team members can go. Maybe it's a room with like low lighting, soft music, and you just get a few minutes to do some breathing exercises. Maybe there's some headphones where you could do guided meditation. Maybe there's sensory bins. Maybe there's, I mean, it's really...
Becca Chambers (29:41.911)
Yes.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (30:09.282)
really depends.
Becca Chambers (30:10.806)
was at LinkedIn in San Francisco and they have it's a sensory room, right? For neurodivergent people who are overstimulated and need to go somewhere that's quiet, it's dark, they have headphones. I was like, this is the jam right here. I wanna live in this room, amazing. And it's just there, you know, they've got ping pong rooms. Why not have a room where people can go and reset their brain, like you said, to just.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (30:18.883)
Okay.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (30:26.592)
Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
Jev Wray (30:27.24)
Hahaha
Becca Chambers (30:37.402)
my God, everything is happening. I've been on 97 calls. have all of the screens and you know, even I'm neurodivergent, even neurotypical people have that happen where their brain just gets fried and they need to reset. you know, give people a space and freedom to do that without shame or whatever. That's awesome.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (30:46.008)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (30:54.478)
Exactly, exactly, exactly. And there is a lot of mindset from the people who don't need it that it's not needed. But I think that there is more people that need it than don't. There's literally like nobody, there's no bad, there's no side effects from it. There's no bad, negative things that come from it. So everybody can benefit from the seven types of rest. Literally everybody.
Becca Chambers (31:12.204)
That's the point.
Becca Chambers (31:17.848)
Also, if I think I don't need it, but then brain science shows me that I do, maybe what you're doing tells people, okay, you don't think that you need it because you've conditioned yourself to think that just powering through whatever, but really look at the science. You do need this and hey, companies, look, all of your employees who think they don't need this really do need this. And if you invest in this, maybe there will be better outcomes in the end.
Jev Wray (31:41.906)
I think everyone needs it because, and from a personal standpoint, I consider myself to be somebody who's very resilient, persevered through the most. I mean, when times get tough, I'm still here mushing it through. But at same time, I might not be cognizant of how much cognitive overload I'm experiencing at a time. And so what I've been in a practice to myself to, on some weekends in particular, to have a meditative session because
Kim Breiland, A.npn (32:02.454)
huh.
Jev Wray (32:10.28)
You know, while I'm in the weeds fighting all these battles, doing this, doing that, I'm not thinking to myself how much my anxiety and my stress is climbing and consistently staying high and how it's affecting me long term, right? And the people who will say, you we're going to need this. It's just that you're just not cognizant of it, really. Everyone has anxiety, but not everyone manages their anxiety as best as the next person.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (32:31.704)
Yep. Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (32:38.806)
And not everybody has symptoms of their anxiety. That's bigger problem, right? And that's the thing that many people don't, there are people that are very resilient and things don't manifest for decades, but it builds up when you are constantly increasing, whether in short bursts or long, prolonged bursts, when you're raising that cortisol level, we know it erodes key aspects of your health, not just your mental health, your physical health. And so,
Jev Wray (32:41.93)
This is also true.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (33:07.852)
You know, I often say when I'm doing, you know, workshops or things like that, I said, raise your hand if you think exercise is a good thing. Raise your hand if you think, you know, lifting weights or going for a run or doing whatever. And, you know, everybody raises their hand. Right? Now, raise your hand if you regularly meditate. And the room is like maybe one person. Raise your hand if you sometimes...
Meditate I might get a few more hands, you know, and so it's it's this stigma I almost feel like that meditation is only for like woo-woo and it's not and the brain science is there That's the thing no different than your body needs to lift weights Walk get the steps in and all those different things you need to nourish your body with healthy foods You need to support your mind because we're now learning the connection of the mind to the body and so literally in performance in longevity
Becca Chambers (34:02.488)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (34:05.952)
in so many areas, it's like everything works together or it should. You want to try it as often as possible.
Becca Chambers (34:10.636)
Yeah. Right. can't compartmentalize. You can't just feed one part and hope that the rest of it will all be okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (34:16.8)
Exactly, you could eat and work out but if you're chronically stressed even at a low level that is impacting you and so most people need that that added support to down regulate down regulate the body there's also Oxidative stress so you could be like I'm a happy person and I'm all you know all these different things But the stress will wear and tear on you over time and so that's not meant to scare anybody It's we have so much available to us. It's it's not expensive
And it's, you know, most of it's free actually. And it's just about creating that new habit. No different than most of us probably before we go to bed, we use the restroom and we brush our teeth. It's creating and we wouldn't think any, you know, we wouldn't not do it. It's building into that. So that workshop I mentioned earlier, they said five minutes a day of meditation, whether self or guided, has a tremendous, like a profound change on the brain.
as opposed to like maybe one 30 minute session a week. So, yes.
Becca Chambers (35:17.304)
That's insane with exercise, right? I mean, like you said, it's about habits. I mean, I had to, I used to feel a lot. take naps on the weekends and I used to feel a lot of shame in that. And I'm like, I feel so much better. My brain works better. Like I feel shame because society tells me that I'm supposed to be productive all the time and whatever, whatever, like napping is literally giving my brain and body the rest it needs to be able to function. Why would I feel shame in that? And to your point, it's just about kind of like changing the perspective of people to
Kim Breiland, A.npn (35:35.074)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (35:39.426)
Good for you. Good for you.
Jev Wray (35:40.766)
Mm-mm.
Becca Chambers (35:45.656)
prioritize these things rather than be like, well, that's a nice to have or that's woo woo or that's whatever. Now you have science.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (35:50.05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, yeah, I agree. And I think the worst thing we can do is live our lives based on what others think. Cause most of the time they're projecting. They don't feel comfortable doing it. So they've got to make you feel bad about doing it. And it's the culture, right? Of America, like hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. You go to other countries and that's not, that's not the culture of that country. And that's why you have to just make decisions based on what works.
Becca Chambers (36:00.278)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becca Chambers (36:12.098)
Right.
Becca Chambers (36:17.784)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (36:17.806)
for I'm all for napping. I could, if it didn't take me 45 minutes just to fall asleep, I would probably not more.
Becca Chambers (36:24.12)
Yeah, I know, but I'm the same way. I have to like block out four hours because it takes me an hour just to fall asleep. Yeah. I want to shift really quick because there is something that I saw in your LinkedIn profile that I'm super interested in and that is that you are a dyslexia advocate because I too, well, I'm an neurodiversity advocate generally, but my kids are dyslexic and I've learned a ton about dyslexia over the past few years navigating their journey. And so I would love to hear about you and your experience in that.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (36:28.616)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (36:39.587)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (36:49.19)
say it.
Yeah, so similar, similar journey. can't say that. I think that I mean, I'm definitely ADHD neurodiver. I definitely have some learning issues more relating to like retrieval or something like that. But I always just overcompensated, but it was my, my son is severely, severely dyslexic. And, as you know, probably we're going to have to have like a separate conversation off of, you know, but
Becca Chambers (37:13.207)
to.
Becca Chambers (37:18.752)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (37:20.448)
So it was through him that I learned, my husband was diagnosed very late. He was diagnosed in middle school with ADHD and dyslexia. And Jack, I knew from birth that something, I'll get it. this is weird synergy here. Okay. This is awesome. You did. my God. We definitely have to set up a coffee chat then. All right. So yeah, so it was just one of those things and I kept, I mean, just really pushing it.
Becca Chambers (37:30.23)
Mine's Jack too. My very dyslexic one is Jack too.
Jev Wray (37:32.375)
Wow!
Becca Chambers (37:37.674)
And I knew from birth too. Yeah, never sat still that kid.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (37:48.15)
And I did see it with my older daughter too, but not nearly as severe. Jack was severe and I used to be a teacher for a couple of years. I was an elementary teacher for a couple of years. And so I knew, you know, I had enough, I had more than just the average knowledge, right? And so I kept pushing, I kept pushing, I kept pushing. And ultimately, I mean, I won't go through the whole story. It was not a pretty situation with the school system, but we got him what he needed. We placed him privately in a,
Becca Chambers (37:59.458)
You know what to look for. Yeah. Right.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (38:17.3)
know, school that's specific for dyslexia. He started in a end of second grade, beginning of third grade. I have to go back and look. And he, I can't talk about it too much because I start to cry, but I, yeah, I, is, he's doing phenomenal now and he's reading, he's able to write, he is excelling. And so it just shows you when you get the brain what it needs. There's so much possible.
Becca Chambers (38:28.854)
I'm the same way, it's life changing, right?
Becca Chambers (38:34.647)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (38:44.058)
And I'm only just beginning in my dyslexia advocacy. This is why we definitely have to talk. Cause my whole why behind, why did I go on my own instead of just continuing to work for a company or freelancing or things like that is cause I do want to scale what I'm doing. And I ultimately hope that I can fund a nonprofit for language based learning difficulties. 50 % of our prisons are simply because people were never taught properly and they weren't.
Becca Chambers (38:48.525)
Yeah.
Becca Chambers (39:05.954)
I
Becca Chambers (39:09.43)
That's how I found out my kid was dyslexic. His kindergarten teacher was like, there are two paths for Jack and it is basically, if he doesn't get the support he needs, he's gonna end up in prison or he's gonna wash out, right? Like there's just, because one kid in a class of 30 who is severely dyslexic, like he cannot be supported here. It's just not possible. I'm so glad she was that blunt with me because most people aren't and they don't find out their kids need that help until fifth grade when they can't.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (39:29.006)
Yes.
That's phenomenal. That's phenomenal.
Becca Chambers (39:38.872)
cover it anymore and then it's a disaster, those poor kids. Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (39:39.842)
Yes. it's awful. It's awful. And so many people don't know. And so many districts are not that progressive and proactive.
Becca Chambers (39:49.206)
No. And I was just lucky I had her. The district is not proactive. So yes, I mean, was individual person, just luck. And to your point, I knew, I could tell my kid was different than all the other kids from the time he was born and the ADHD was off the charts and certain things like he didn't have, he wasn't right-handed or left-handed for a long time. I didn't know that was a dyslexia thing. Did you know that? Yeah, so interesting. Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (39:53.39)
OK, so you. That that's.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (40:12.566)
Yeah, yeah all these crazy all these crazy things you would not think are dyslexia things like he could not no matter how hard I tried could not could not remember today tomorrow yesterday He couldn't so they have a hard time of any concept whether visual or just Am I trying to say like in their brains? Just like thinking wise they like above and and below Like those kind of things like above and below or in front and behind
Jev Wray (40:14.568)
Did not that either.
Becca Chambers (40:18.392)
Totally.
Becca Chambers (40:41.152)
It's because they think in 3D, because they don't think in like planes.
Jev Wray (40:42.186)
prepositions.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (40:44.052)
No, like spatial, like spatial related and order and, you know, things like that. It's you wouldn't think that that is a thing, but yeah.
Jev Wray (40:46.538)
special.
Becca Chambers (40:55.64)
But the reason why that is a thing for them is because their brains, have actual better spatial reasoning than regular people. So they can't see things in the like plain way that we see it. They see things in these much more dimensional ways, which is why they're good at engineering and art and building things. like my son, 100%, 100%. From the time he was two, he could work.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (41:12.386)
Yes. Yes, that's Jack. Is that your Jack? That's my Jack. my gosh. Like, yes.
Jev Wray (41:19.142)
my god!
Becca Chambers (41:20.684)
to navigate directions places. And I'm like, why does my two-year-old know how, like, he's like a Google map in his brain. And then, you know, five years later, we're like, it's because he's dyslexic and his brain works in these amazing ways. But then he can't like, look at an A and be like, I don't know what that is. And it's like, my God, we just went over this. Why can't you get it? Now he's in fifth grade and he reads like a champ. He spells like nothing, he cannot spell, but I'm like, that's what spell checks for my boy.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (41:39.928)
Yes. Yes.
Awesome.
Well, that'll come along though too, because when I consulted with somebody years ago, like when we were going through this whole process, she said the decoding has to come before the encoding. So the brain has to learn and master and close those gaps and it will happen. I have watched Jack, so my Jack is in eighth grade now and the way his brain works, I mean just the gaps so to speak, and I hate to call him gaps even because I guess he's learning to think more like the rest of us.
Becca Chambers (41:57.367)
Yes.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (42:14.562)
But the things he's been able to learn and do and apply, I I just keep seeing growth compounding now. And I think you're going to see that too. And then there's always spell check. Yeah.
Becca Chambers (42:21.432)
tunnel it.
Jev Wray (42:26.367)
You
Becca Chambers (42:26.464)
Always go check. And I do see him though, like in other ways, like light years ahead of his friends in certain things. like, I look at neurodiversity with every downside, there is like a massive upside. And as long as you can understand what that upside is, like you'll be fine, right? And figure out how to create all the coping mechanisms for the downsides, which us neuro spicy people have done over the years.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (42:49.422)
There you go. Yes, I love it.
Jev Wray (42:52.35)
You know, it's so funny you mentioned that because I've taken upon myself to just stop referring to these things as disabilities, but instead dispositions because, know, exactly what you just said, you know, it's not so much so that this person is just completely disabled from, I guess, just life in general. know, yes, they might learn on a different pace, you know, in particular areas, particular domains, or they might, you know, demonstrate, you know,
Becca Chambers (43:00.012)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (43:01.72)
like that.
Jev Wray (43:18.867)
I guess, you know, some kind of aptitude in different areas, like extreme aptitude in all the areas. But, you know, I guess it all comes down to how we're wired, right? You know, which is why disposition, not disability.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (43:30.115)
Yeah.
Becca Chambers (43:30.39)
and there's like, we were just talking about all of the things that apply to a dyslexic person. Like they learn how to read differently. Turns out other kids, they learn better how to read that way too. So if we took the way that dyslexic kids learn how to read and applied it to everybody, everyone benefits from that. Same with the ADHD stuff, right? The stuff that you're doing in business. Like all of these things.
that we're like, it applies to this subset of people. Really, it almost always makes everyone's life better. Accommodations make everyone's life better. And here's a good example, right? My city is changing all of the sidewalks to be wheelchair friendly, right? Guess who benefits the most from that? Women with strollers.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (44:07.598)
Yeah
Becca Chambers (44:13.948)
Not disabled people, women with strollers. There are far more of them in our neighborhoods than people with wheelchairs. They put them there for the people with wheelchairs or people who are using some sort of assistive devices. But more than not, they are being used by women with strollers. And I think that is like a perfect example of how accommodations benefit everybody in different ways. And I think we can apply all of this.
Jev Wray (44:32.562)
I
Kim Breiland, A.npn (44:35.67)
Everybody. Awesome. 100%. Yeah. Amazing.
Becca Chambers (44:40.946)
I that. Okay, I'm going to ask you the question that we ask everybody before we wrap up, which is I'm a big visionary and hopefully you've thought about this. So what's an aspect of brain science that you think will completely surprise us once it's fully understood?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (44:55.139)
Uh-huh.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (45:00.078)
Gosh, I don't know that I have one thing. Okay, I think that once we understand The way well, we know we know how the brain works, but where I feel like we're starting to tap into its power and So I have this big like I don't even know that I can articulate it well It's like more of like a vision in my head than anything but I have I feel as though there's going to be a technology where You literally can think things and it's somehow
communicates, like it's built in to our everyday lives and the way we interact with our everyday lives. yes, it's AI driven. I almost feel like I'm dating myself now, but kind of like when we were little, like Back to the Future 2 was like this hover boards and all these kind of crazy things. like, feel, or Jetsons or something like that, I don't know. I feel like in the next 10 to 20 years, like,
Becca Chambers (45:49.09)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (45:56.632)
There's going to be such a difference in our world and that's set up in the way communities are built, in the way we interact with communities. just, I don't know, I feel in some ways we haven't even like chipped away at the iceberg of possibility yet. And it's like not even in the realm. Somebody interesting, the best thing I ever heard was somebody said, you know, would like go back to like 1800s New York City. There were, you know.
Becca Chambers (46:10.21)
Yeah.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (46:20.782)
animal or there were horses everywhere and they were their biggest concern was like, how are we going to keep up with all the poop? You know, and then who would have thought in that moment that the car was going to be invented? We're a subway, right? And I just, I don't mean to not have a fun or cool answer. I feel like the best things have not even been conceptualized yet. Yeah. Like I don't even think we can have them yet. What is going to be. Yeah.
Becca Chambers (46:27.298)
Yeah.
Becca Chambers (46:32.192)
or the subway, right? Underground, yeah.
Becca Chambers (46:38.775)
Yeah.
We can't even fathom what they are. Yeah.
Becca Chambers (46:47.308)
I think you're right. I I think once we figure out not only that what we can understand about the brain, but yeah, how we can use it and how we can like tap into its potential. I totally agree. think I love that. We can't even fathom. Yeah. All right. So before we wrap, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners? Something about what you're currently working on or ways to learn more about your work or upcoming projects, how to find you?
Kim Breiland, A.npn (46:57.218)
Yeah, yeah. Cool question. Cool question. Yeah, yeah.
Jev Wray (46:58.206)
Absolutely.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (47:11.532)
Yeah, well, I would just ask, would love, I love building community. I, that's how I met you back up, Jeff. That's how I think through back and met you. would say come visit me on LinkedIn. That's where I hang out a lot. I'm not, I'm not as epically cool as Becca with my LinkedIn, more of a neuro nerd. but, you know, yes, definitely come. it's just at Kim Braylon. So you can find me on, LinkedIn. Yeah.
Becca Chambers (47:34.08)
Amazing. Well, thank you, Kim, for being here and everybody who's listening. If you are not watching, it's Kim Brayland. B-R-E-I-L-A-N-D. And it's great to have you here. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you.
Kim Breiland, A.npn (47:43.928)
Thank you.
I so appreciate this. Thank you both.
Jev Wray (47:49.438)
Thank you.